As the 24th President of France, François Hollande was leading the country at the launch of the United Nations (UN) Sustainable Development Goals—calling them one of the UN’s “most decisive steps toward ensuring the collective well-being of people and the planet.” In this episode, Hollande reflects on progress towards the goals and addresses the need for international reform, the importance of intergenerational collaboration and the potential for democracy to address global crises.
There is still a creative drive, there is still imagination, there is an audacity. There are still young people, and sometimes even not so young people, who think they can change the world. As long as there are people who think we can change the world, the world cannot be desperate.”
—François Hollande, 24th President of France
Subscribe to Breaking Boundaries wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode:
Former French President François Hollande shed new insights on pressing global issues concerning the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals (UN SDGs), climate change, international cooperation and the future of democracy. President Hollande, an ardent supporter of the UN SDGs since their launch during his presidential tenure, acknowledged the challenges posed by the contemporary geopolitical landscape, highlighting the breakdown of multilateral agreements and the escalation of conflicts worldwide. Despite these obstacles, he underscored the significance of the UN SDGs, providing a framework for evaluation and urging government, industry and civil society to work fervently towards their attainment.
Among the challenges he examined was the delicate balance between safeguarding employment and combating climate change. Former President Hollande emphasized the necessity of a just transition, ensuring that the workforce is not marginalized as industries pivot towards renewable energy sources. He advocated for social redistribution and a progressive taxation system to aid those most adversely affected by the transition.
He also called for comprehensive reforms within the United Nations system. While acknowledging the complications arising from the veto power wielded by permanent members, he proposed expanding the number of permanent members on their Security Council representing diverse global regions. He also stressed the importance of instituting novel global organizations concentrated on specific issues such as climate change, thereby ensuring more equitable representation and efficient decision-making processes.
Former President Hollande now leads a foundation, La France s'engage, which supports innovative initiatives emerging from civil society. He underscored the significance of intergenerational discourse. He expressed optimism that heightened awareness of impending global challenges would galvanize increased commitment and collaboration across generations, while also expressing his apprehensions about the fragility of democracy in the face of recent global crises. To delve deeper into former President Hollande’s insights, make sure to subscribe to our Breaking Boundaries podcast and listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music and more.
[00:00:00] Annelise Riles: Welcome to the Breaking Boundaries podcast. I'm Annelise Riles, Executive Director of Northwestern University's Roberta Buffett Institute for Global Affairs. The Northwestern Buffett Institute is dedicated to breaking through traditional silos of expertise, geography, culture, and language to surface novel solutions to pressing global challenges. Today, I am thrilled to introduce a very special guest and a true champion of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, François Hollande, the former president of the Republic of France, was leading the country when the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals were adopted by all 193 United Nations member states in 2015 in Paris. At the time President Hollande said that the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals were one of the most decisive steps in the United Nations history towards ensuring the collective well being of the people and the planet. He's here to share his perspective on progress towards the accomplishment of those goals, as well as current challenges and opportunities in coordinating multilateral action. Monsieur le Président Hollande, welcome back to Chicago and welcome to Northwestern and thank you for being here today.
[00:01:20] President Hollande: It's a pleasure to be here with you. I will speak in French to clarify my answers, but I know how many students here are learning French. And we will have no trouble understanding me. I hope so.
[00:01:35] Annelise Riles: Since your term ended in 2017, you have published several books, including most recently Bouleversement, in which you've shared your vision on many matters related to international and French politics. How has the state of international affairs and international coordination or multilateralism changed since you departed the Elysée six years ago?
[00:01:59] President Hollande: I would not commit the sin of immodesty, thinking that it is my departure that has caused, alas, the troubles we know in the world and the retreat of multilateralism. Alas, this trend was already engaged and it has amplified. There were both the agreements that had been signed and that seemed to be important steps in the multilateralism. I think, in particular, the climate agreement, which was torn apart by President Trump, the Iranian nuclear agreement. Which had taken more than 10 years before being finally concluded, and which was also abandoned. And there have been conflicts that have ceased to amplify and degenerate in a war, the war in Ukraine, and which all translate these conflicts. The fact that we are in a world that is broken. With a bi polarization between the bloc of autocratic regimes and the alliance of democratic countries. And the system of the United Nations, which could be a system of dialogue, of mediation, is today totally blocked with the Security Council, which, when it comes together cannot deliberately release because the Russian veto or the Chinese veto is immediately asked. So, has there been no progress in areas that are finally coming to us? Yes, there has been and we have pursued, well, the world has pursued these discussions on the climate issue and there will be a COP 28 in Abu Dhabi and it is possible that there are progress, as there was in Glasgow in, in the recent COP, and therefore the process that I, that I had engaged, which had occurred at the time of the Paris agreements, is not in a hurry, and there are still now meetings, both for biodiversity and for the sea, since there is a treaty on the high seas that has been negotiated and concluded, and there are COPs that are meeting and that allow to move forward under the pressure of public opinion, everything related to political regulation is now blocked. But everything that is common to humanity continues to advance, and emerging countries are trying to take their place in this organization.
[00:04:39] Annelise Riles: That is very interesting and a very complex and interesting answer. Let's talk about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. Eight years ago, you championed the launch of those goals. How is progress going and what do you think needs to be done at this COP and beyond to get closer to achieving them by 2030?
[00:04:59] President Hollande: First of all, these objectives have the merit of existing. They are known to all, and they are evaluation mechanisms in each country. Even if there are no sanctions, but at least evaluations of the policy that is conducted in each of these countries, so that we can know if there is progress or retreat. In the same way, we have had the reports, Institutions like the IPCC, which have reassured us in the sense that there is always this need to achieve these objectives, but also worried, because compared to what I noticed almost 10 years ago That is to say that we were in the idea that the world could avoid a too important heat at the end of the century of the order of two degrees Celsius. It is to be feared, it is even now certain, that this warming will be observed by 2050. So, it will drive Europe, in particular, to accelerate these decisions. I hope that also in the United States there will be, after the laws that have been voted, in particular those on the ad that is provided for industry, industries that must be converted to the United States, that there will be objectives that will be achieved by 2030. They will not all be, but there is also the need to create funds to help emerging countries achieve these goals of sustainable development. And there, it is one of the failures of the Paris Agreement. There was a clause that predicted that there would be 100 billion dollars that would be brought to these emerging countries every year for, well, to support them in their transition and respect for their objectives. Unfortunately, 70 to 80 percent of these funds have been constituted. This is insufficient. This will also lead to the reflection of the reforms of international institutions. As much as I said, for the UN, the Security Council system will not be modified. However, it is absolutely necessary that the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and the UN organizations are much more mobilized and much more financially supported so that we can support the most vulnerable countries.
[00:07:35] Annelise Riles: We were just, speaking just before this podcast about, the tension between, protecting jobs for workers and, addressing the needs of, climate change. Is there a way as a politician who has supported unions and jobs your whole career, is there a way to be both in favor of climate protection and in favor of equality, economic quality and job security?
[00:08:06] President Hollande: Indeed, there are objectives that can be contradictory, and that could be a dilemma. Either project the planet or destroy jobs, either protect humanity in the long term or destroy it in the short term. So I believe that solutions exist. If we want there to be a change in industries, we have to assure workers and therefore their unions, their means to form, qualify, and find the jobs that will be lost because of the end of thermal energy. So the question is, will these jobs be created, or are they going to be destroyed? I mean, are we going to install new factories of electric batteries, renewable energy, where there were automobile industries? That is the role of the state to ensure that there is this transition is as soft as possible. The second consequence is that if there is no social redistribution, that is to say, the support, the aid that is provided to those who will have constraints by the measures that need to be taken to fight against heating. For example, less to transport by car, isolate your home, be less dependent on fuel and fossil energy. So they need to know an increase in their prices. That is to say that the ecological transition will lead to inflation. We see it today as prices are rising. On all those who are part carbon, the price of carbon will continue to rise in the coming years, so we will need a redistribution system so that the categories that will be most impacted by these constraints, these measures, and these additional costs, will be reduced can be helped. And for that, we need to have a redistributive tax. We will have to take from some, those who have the most benefited from the carbon economy to give to others so that the transition can be sustainable. When they say sustainable, it's now growth that must be sustainable. It's not the transition that must be sustainable. It's the individuals that must be supported for the transition. I think the next conflict is on this. That is to say that for a long time, we had an opposition among those who did not believe in the warming, and those who were certain that they were occurring. between the climate skeptics and those who were convinced, the most enlightened, that there was a warming, and scientists finally argued in the way by showing that there was indeed a warming, and the climate skeptics are more and more silent, on the other hand. The populist parties, the extremist parties will use fear, which is not unjustified by the way, the scale of the mutation to operate to convince a part of the population to refuse the measures of the fight against warming. Already in the United Kingdom, the government has retreated. In France, they are trying to push back a number of shortages, especially for the isolation of housing. And in the United States, we know that there is a pressure, especially for thermal vehicles compared to electric vehicles. So it will take a long. And a lot of courage, Frau, to ensure this transition.
[00:12:01] Annelise Riles: So, you've recently said that the United Nations must be reformed, that it does not reflect the reality of the planet. In particular, you said the UN system is blocked on issues such as climate crisis, water insecurity, and migration. Can you talk about this? Why and how do you think that the United Nations must be transformed or reformed to make progress. And how can we actually do that? You've noted in sharing your views on the need for reform. that the five permanent members, as you just told us, China, France, Russia, the U. K. and the U. S. will not go along with reforms. How is reform possible and why is this not a moment like the moment of the League of Nations when it was impossible to have reform due to the composition of the U. N. Security Council?
[00:12:51] President Hollande: We have to be realistic. Even if it doesn't please us, I'm speaking on behalf of a country that has the right to veto and is a permanent member of the Security Council. To change this system, we have to agree with all permanent members of the Security Council. And it is not doubtful that Russia, China, and the United States, and probably even France and the United Kingdom, would not want to lose this power. Which is to have the status of permanent member with veto right. So what can we do that could be accepted by these permanent members and that could be assigned to the world that does not have its place? We can say it well, of international institutions. I think the first decision could be to expand the number of permanent members of the Security Council, even if it would not necessarily be endowed with a veto right. But it would be logical that large countries like India, like South Africa, like Brazil could have a permanent member status of the Security Council. In the same way, it would be necessary that the continents that can be taken up to this scale, that is, in a decision making body, Africa. Latin America, Oceania. So that the United Nations system is not regarded as a Western system, which is, which is it today. And in the same time, we see that since we are struggling to change the system, the United Nations, we are inventing other structures. We had invented the G20. We had invented the G7 before the G8 became the G7. I think that the BRICS, since now there is an organization that has built itself between the emerging countries, which were at the beginning 5 and which will now be more numerous, what do they want? They want to be integrated into a decision making process. We will also have to change the way the International Monetary Fund is organized, which is always run either by a European or an American. Or the World Bank, which is always run by an American when it is a European who is head of the International Monetary Fund. We will have to change this type of redistribution so that the part of the world that feels badly represented, or even underrepresented, That's it. Finally, on climate issues, we will have to create a global environmental organization that could have, not the capacity to impose sanctions, but that could take care of the respect of the commitments. So, there will surely be, in the United Nations system that has not reformed, another geography that will be set up through specific organizations. Thank Because what works best in the United Nations system is what is being talked about the least. That is to say, the High Commissioner for Refugees, the WHO, which has been perceived for the health crisis, UNESCO for educational development programs. This system works because it is not precisely political, it is specific and that it was, it makes it valuable.
[00:16:29] Annelise Riles: Absolutely. And,if I'm permitted one comment, we're just so delighted that the United States has rejoined UNESCO recently and can be a part of that, organization. Tell me about the foundation you lead, La France s'engage, or France is committed. What is the mission?
[00:16:45] President Hollande: When I was president of the French Republic, I wanted to support innovative initiatives coming from civil society, that is, associations, companies that we call the solidarity economy, that is the non market economy, so that these initiatives can invent policies both to fight against the disability, to promote climate measures, to fight against violence against women, to allow the welcome of refugees, et cetera, et cetera. This foundation finances about 20 associations every year, and it gives them both a funding and a compensation, and it creates a community. Today there are about 250 initiatives that are cooperating and working in society. This is what makes us. This is what makes me, by the way, confident we're talking about, for a good reason, a disaffection towards politics, a disengagement of youth. Whereas, when we look closely at what is happening in our societies, There is still a creative ebullition, there is still imagination, there is an audacity. There are still young people, and sometimes even younger people, who think, change the world. As long as there are people who think we can change the world. The world cannot be desperate.
[00:18:20] Annelise Riles: That's so interesting that you're working with young people in, that way to find new solutions to problems. We here at Northwestern Buffett talk a great deal about intergenerational justice. And, since leaving the Élysée, you have... even published two children's books. And, it was really touching this morning to see how you engaged with our students and how happy they were to have a chance to speak to you directly. so we were very grateful to that. What do you think are the challenges of creating a just and equitable dialogue between generations about problems like climate change or employment? and what Through your foundation or your books, do you want to communicate to the next generation?
[00:19:04] President Hollande: I was very much wondering about the role of an old president. What a person who has exercised important functions in a country that counts on the global plan and which has certain radiance. Well, I consider that it was to transmit his mission. When he still has the capacity, when he still has the will, it is to be able to say not just what he did, decisions, good or bad, no, to try to transmit the experience that was mine. In this case, what did I remember? What was the blocking factor? What makes us have hope? How do institutions work? All the questions you ask me, I wanted to put them at the disposal of a large audience, and to start with the youngest, and I realized by making for children, those who are at school, and to explain how democracy works, how elections are organized, what political parties, unions, etc. mean. I realized that, for them, it was a matter of curiosity, so I contributed in a certain way to their education without taking the place of the teachers. But above all, I hope that the parents would read children's books, because the problem is not the children, it's the parents. There has been the evolution of our society's social networks, a kind of loss of collective life, of common engagement, the role of politics. Well, the active generation has lost part of the references that could be, however, those of the previous generation, who did not have the same level of instruction, but who knew what democracy, republic, political forces were. And so I want us to be able to reconcile generations. There is nothing more serious than thinking that the climate issue would be the young people who should take it, and the issues of solidarity, of struggles against precariousness, would be the young people who should take it, and the issues of solidarity, of struggle against precariousness, the oldest ones who should mobilize themselves for the end of existence. Thank Now, we saw, we saw it when the health crisis happened. We are all concerned, even if some are more vulnerable than others. So we must absolutely put together between generations and show that there can be even an alliance between the generations, the oldest ones and the youngest ones, to respond to the big issues that the younger generation expressed their demands.
[00:22:05] Annelise Riles: Well, I want to end by asking you the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, as you look into the future, what worries you the most and what gives you the greatest amount of hope?
[00:22:18] President Hollande: L'espoir, c'est que la conscience des drames qui pourraient nous attendre... I hope. That the awareness of the dramas that could await us will be stronger, so that these dramas can be overlapped. That's my hope. That is to say that our level of commitment can be at the level of the risks that the planet is facing, both for the climate and for conflicts between generations, conflicts of war between countries. Well, we can clearly see through migration the issues that are in debate. And my biggest fear is that democracy is not strong enough to resist all the crises it knows. Autocratic regimes... cannot ask themselves these questions, since they live on the principle of force, authority, and oppression. Public opinion does not exist for autocratic regimes. But we now have a contradiction between opinion, which is necessarily volatile, which is sometimes contradictory, which can be violent, and which is exacerbated by social networks and democracy. Our democracy is not the reflect of opinion. Democracy is the expression of ideas to achieve a common good. If democracy is too fragile, we risk having a world that cannot resist force.
[00:23:58] Annelise Riles: Well, President Hollande, what gives me hope is to discover that someone as important and engaged in global affairs as yourself is such a brilliant, educated and compassionate leader. So, we want to thank you very much for visiting us at Northwestern Buffett and for taking time to share your ideas. Merci infiniment.
[00:24:23] President Hollande: Don't thank me. You are the ones who are making a great effort to train the new generations. It's not the old leaders who count, it's the new ones. Thank you.
[00:24:34] Annelise Riles: For more information on this episode and on the Northwestern Buffett Institute for Global Affairs, visit us at buffett.northwestern.edu.